Just curious how other firms do their table of contents … do you include the number of pages for each section or is it simply a list of the sections included under each division heading?
Include number of pages.
No offense but it is busy work if you ask me. Why do you need to list the number of pages?
I have occasionally been required to do this so I unhappily comply. It’s always a moving target since page counts change.
No number of pages, as you know. And unless it’s automatic, it’s just one more thing to coordinate or forget to change.
I number the pages, every time, all the time. Its not a makework task and provides a required check that you actually have all the pages of the section. If you count them anyway, why not write the number in. Just as easy as making a check mark.
So many times it has saved consultants from missing information when a page has been left out for some reason.
My project manuals are typically 2 volumns that number 800 pages per volume on average. Since I use the page count as a check off notation that I have all the pages, it only adds a few minutes that it takes to input the page numbers after doing it. If I did not do page numbers, no real time would be saved since one has to look to see that all the pages are there anyway.
William
I don’t include the number of pages per section in the table of contents. I believe this practice dates way back to the 50s, 60s or 70s. I know some government entities still require this antiquated practice (i.e. the State of Kansas, where most things are antiquated.)
The original idea, as I have been told, was to allow one to compare each section’s quantity of pages with the number of pages listed in the table of contents in order to ensure one had a complete project manual. There was also the argument that a bidder could say they didnt receive all the pages unless the bidding documents told them how many pages were suppose to be included. However, the instructions to bidders should clearly state that it is the bidders responsibility to use a complete set of bidding documents.
Having the table of contents Include the number of pages within each section seems to be contrary to the say it once concept. I simply assume people can read END OF SECTION at the end of each section to verify that they have all the pages between the first and last pages.
I DO list the number of pages. It acts as a reference to be sure all of the documents are there. I even number pages 1+xx when I have attachments, such as geo-tech reports. It is done as the project manual is put together, and is not just busy work.
Listing the pages numbers for me is always automatic.
Sidebar. Talking about busy work - Does anyone still include a list of drawings in the specifications? 5 years ago when I started doing spec’s I asked why do we do this when it is on the drawing cover sheets. “Because we alwasy have” seemed to be the answer. I stopped doing it and nobody has complained, yet. The CSI MOP does not include this.
Russ,
Occasionally I am asked to make a list of Drawings in the specs. Again, it is busy work. It is hard enough for the architects to keep a correct list on the cover sheet, let alone me repeat the information.
As far as page numbers go, it is hard enough to make sure that the correct section numbers and titles are in the Table of Contents.
I typically have the project administrative assistant check the table of contents to the sections I have printed out of received from consultants. The assistants alway catch something. It’s nice to have a second set of eyes.
BTW, I also break with CSI PageFormat and put “Page 8 of 14” at the bottom of my pages. That way the Contractor knows that he is missing some pages if the last page he has is Page 8.
I DO NOT list the drawings in the Project Manual, unless absolutely required by the Owner. This already exists on the Contract Documents, listed on the drawing cover page. Say it once.
Yes, it may seem to be busy work, but I include pages because it gives me one last review of the complete spec when compiling page numbers. It is surprising how may errors I catch with this last review.
I’m with David and Ronald on this one. Every one of my sections already has its own individual consecutive numbering from the beginning to the end of the individual section and the last page of the section always includes the words END OF SECTION. Repeating the numbering of each section on the Table of Contents would require constantly remembering to recheck the numbers on the Table of Contents every time I update the section and it serves no real useful purpose. It does, however, add one more potential for errors to appear in my documents and I tend to favor reducing that potential as much as possible.
I avoid the list of drawings as well.
We have a specific list of drawings document in he specification. Too many times we get requests from an owner for a document that lists the drawings and latest date for their legal closing with an investor or bank, whatever.
We also get requests for Owners that our drawings cover sheet page list drawings of all consultants, even those not in our contract who may print and revise information separately. Thus, we use our list of drawings as a tool. It is the official list covering our drawings and those of our consultants, and when a drawing is revised, the list is revised with the lastest dates.
I agree with Ruppert and William, I always number the pages and get very frustrated when the MEP’s don’t. I only include a List of Drawings if provided by the Architect, typically this is not the case.
Showing number of pages in the table of contents is busy work. Each page has a number, and the last page says “end of section” so it’s obvious if a page is missing. I can’t imagine anyone counting the pages to see if they’re all there; instead, they would just look at the page numbers. Similarly, putting “page x of y” provides no additional information.
I suppose you could follow the practice used for drawings - list every page of every section. That way you would know for sure that you had everything. Or maybe you should number drawings the way spec pages are numbered - A-001 of A-100, A-101 of A-100 - oops! Gee, maybe that won’t work after all
Going one step further (and this is one of my favorite peeves) I do not list unused Divisions followed by “not used”. Just as I do not list the entire list of MasterFormat section numbers and indicate “not used” after the ones that aren’t used. Or all of the article titles in a section with “not used” after the ones that aren’t used. Or all of the colors of the rainbow, dates of the year, or reference standards that aren’t used, or consultants that aren’t used, or
I gave up using the number of pages in the contents some years ago. I still check (or someone does) that each section has all its pages, and there is a section printed for every listing in the TOC and vice-versa just prior to repro. Thus, that QC step is there without the drudgery of adding the number of pages.
I pretty much got sick of it when one would section changed at the very last minute, getting a new version slipped while it was sitting there on the counter ready for reproduction. Then, I’d have to redo the TOC as well. One too many times.
Sheldon,
I’ve actually seen sets of drawings that have sheet numbers as, for example, A2.17 of 93 Sheets" where the 93 sheets is the total of all civil, landscape, architectural, structural, mechanical, plumbing, and electrical sheets. Old habits die real hard.
Well, you know, we’ve always done it that way! “Tradition…tradition (sang Tevya)” And we’ve NEVER done it the other way!
Regarding including a list of drawings in the specs … if that was the case, shouldn’t we also have a list of spec sections on the drawings? Just kidding.
Although it becomes busy work, we justify including a list of drawings in the TOC as we are then able to provide that as a reference to the list of drawings for inclusion in the owner-contractor contracts.
I NEVER list the number of pages unless required by a client’s standard format or request. Even then, I do not list them until we reach an actual Permit or Bid Submittal. Our format always includes an “End of Section”, so there is no issue of dropping pages.
My main reason is that the page number really doesn’t provide useful information (unless you want to know precisely how big the print order is). I find that the page count can change due to minor editing changes, so you would need to re-check constantly. We do very large projects that often have a ten year life span. In that time, you might have someone spend 40 hours just counting the pages.