Seems at least one aluminum fenestration manuf is offering opaque white anodize finish on aluminum with a 5 yr warranty - is anyone else offering this finish - Any reason I should not be excited about this option in lieu of a white painted aluminum ESP?
YKK? They did a presentation for us several years ago, and had introduced the white anodized then. Seemed like a good product at the time.
Yes it is a YKK product, so is this finish available from any other manufacturers? I emailed Tammy at Linetec to see why they do not offer it…not many in SFL know this option exists.
I prefer the Kynar resin-based paints (i.e. Duranar) over anodizing, but then that’s me. I’ve seen too much chalking or pitting with anodized finishes, especially near the Ocean.
The following is a response to my query from Tammy Schroeder at Linetec:
Linetec does not offer a white anodize
White anodize is not a true anodize finish. The white comes from an E-coat paint finish that is applied over an unsealed anodize.
Because it is an e-coat paint, the white will chalk, fade and mar. It is not abrasion resistant like a Class I Architectural Anodize, it does not have metallic luster like anodize, and it will not perform like a Fluoropolymer (Kynar) paint when exposed to UV.
It is a paint finish over an unsealed anodize finish.
An anodize finish gives wearability and durability, while a paint finish gives endless color choice and good weatherability. An anodize finish should be chosen for projects that require hardness, strength and durability, while a painted finish should be selected when color is required and long-term weatherability.
The anodizing process employed for architectural industry is most often the Two-Step Electrolytic Anodize. The actual anodizing and coloring of the aluminum occur in separate steps of the process. The anodizing step takes place in a tank that contains a solution of sulfuric acid and water. The tank is charged with electrical current, and aluminum oxide is formed on the surface of the aluminum. After anodizing is complete, the parts can be immersed in an optional coloring tank, to achieve bronze or black tones instead of the standard clear or silver finish. In the coloring tank, the anodized aluminum is immersed in a bath containing an inorganic metal such as tin, cobalt or nickel, which are deposited in the anodic pores by means of electrolytic current. After anodizing and coloring, the material is sealed in a mid-temperature hydrothermal seal and then given a final hot water rinse. This last, important step assures that the high-quality anodized finishes will maintain their beauty and durability for many years.
With white anodize the parts are placed in the anodize tank, and left unsealed so a white colored paint can be applied over the top.
I think we need a response from YKK, then, for their explanation.
You read my mind Lynn, I am forwarding Tammy’s response to my YKK rep, hopefully he will respond in a timely manner.
Jerome, thanks so much for posting the explanation from Tammy. I love this forum.
Cudos to Colin, 4specs is the first place I look for spec research and this discussion board has been such a tremendous help…I can not work without it.
Richard I do agree, however one of the questions that my clients ask is what is considered “near the ocean”? - actually there is salt in the air thruout Florida, trying to get a developer to use a resin based finish in Orlando, or for that matter in West Miami is difficult, Kynars and Duranars are great products, but they cost a lot more than acyrlic or polyesters…and cost is paramount these days. I just sent an email to my local PPG Coatings rep, asking what is considered near the ocean, with the newest warranties that may not be a consideration any more, though you and I based on our experience will have a different opinion. I am apalled when a client insists we spec acrylic on aluminum on Miami Beach, but it happens way to often.
Has anyone done research on this, what constitutes “near the ocean”? Perhaps i should start a new discussion on this.
Jerome - Yes, Florida has the Ocean on both coasts. Without knowing the distance across, I would say anywhere in Florida is near the Ocean.
I live and work in Southern California, and am near the Ocean (within 6-10 miles or so). Since corrosive environments can be pretty much anywhere, the proximity to the Ocean may not be an issue.
As for clients “insisting” on certain products, it’s our job to educate them. Remember that the Client is always right, even when they are wrong.
So have your CYA letter ready.
You can always paint the aluminum with products from Carboline, Tnemec, etc. You should also check with your paint reps for the acrylic, but I don’t think it will hold up as well.
Thanks for sharing the response from Linetec
When I was in college, ‘near the ocean’ meant I could leave class, drive to the ocean, and be back in time for my AM classes the next day.
I have no idea what it would mean in terms of corrosion.
Having started my career in Washington, DC, we considerd anything within 2000 miles of Capitol Hill to be under the influence of a corrosive atmosphere.
As to use of urethanes over epoxies vs. field-applied PVDF, vs. other high-performance coatings, cost has always been prohibitive when compared to anodizing or shop-applied PVDF, even when applying an additional clear coat at ‘corrosive’ conditions. Acrylics, polyesters, and similar products are fine if owners want a costly maintenance program on their hands. As much as I like YKK, I don’t understand applying acrylic over anodizing which is what I’ve heard they do when providing some of their ‘specialty’ anodized finishes. Acrylics yellow and tend to fail after about 10 years under the best of conditions.
I try to remind myself that very often people have more dollars than sense.
YKK? Don’t they make zippers?!
Jerome, Thanks for this interesting thread. I would assume that everything in Florida is near the ocean, just like everything in Great Britain or Japan is near the ocean.
Tammy, Thanks for this description of anodizing. I’m going to save it. I think our client architects usually select aluminum finishes by color, not function.
There is also near the ocean and really near the ocean.
In San Francisco where I live and work, once you get out within a couple miles of the ocean in the “Avenues” of the Richmond and Sunset districts, you quickly learn that only bronze or Type 316 (or even better) stainless steel will hold up for exterior hardware items and fixtures.
David, YKK (Yoshida Kogyo Kabushikikaisha) makes everything from Z to A, and damn if you are not correct they do makes millions of Zippers each day (tidbit for those of you that enjoy learning mundane new things), thank god Tadahiro Yoshida the founding chairman’s last name didn’t start with K,I doubt KKK would go over as well as YKK…and why am I spending my precious time telling you all this - its just been one of those days where I’d rather not be an architect or specwriter, actually I wish I had a penny for every zipper these guys manufacturer, wouldn’t that be awsome.
And how many of you looked at the zippers on your apparel to check if it was manufactured by YKK?
I put a call into Malcom Brant, head honcho at Windsor Metal Finishing (anyone working in the Southeast, remembers Fred Dula of Stirling Dula Railings, after Fred sold his business he went to work for Windsor) they provide both liquid and powder finishing of aluminum based in Central FL, another good resource esp for Florida work, I will post his comments on this current discussion, several years ago we had a similar conversation and the distance was set at within 5 miles as the bird flies from the ocean for a 5yr Kynar warranty…but warranties seem to change so often.
Isn’t there a building somewhere shaped like a zipper, with it partially open as the building entrance, or is that just a nightmare I’ve had…
From Windsor’s website, warranty statement:
Windsor Metal Specialties and their suppliers of Kynar 500 or Hylar 5000 coatings require that coated products that are located less than one mile from the seashore (salt water) be systematically fresh water rinsed at least annually so as to prevent the accumulation of salt deposits . Homeowner or building owner is required to keep records of such maintenance for the warranty to be enforceable.
Sure, my clients are definitely going to abide by that requirement…