May be wrong in these changing times, but our interiors people insist that all product information [i.e., manufacturer, type, pattern, color, style, etc.] information should be located on the drawings.
With that the specifciations that “remain” are merely the technical backup “stuff” that keeps them out of trouble.
What happened to specing everything in the Project Manual and using designators/indicators on the drawings to ID specific selections at various locations?
Youre right they are wrong!
Lead these fallen sheep unto the Path of Righteousness. Purge their Schedule For Those Who Finish of technical data!
Leave them their pattern and color if they must, for WE do not care. Offer unto the spec writer that which is OURS!
Theirs is only the Quantity and Location. To the spec writer goes the QUALITY.
Sorry, I opened a new bar of Dr. Bronners soap last night and read the whole label.
seriously I let the finish schedule of legend take the pattern, color, style etc. but keep (for example) the carpet type, yarn weight etc in the spec SO that if substitutions show up I have tech data to judge them against. Not to mention all of part 1 and part 3
I agree that it is preferable that “everything” should be specified in the Project Manual and indicated in the drawings using only designations such as CPT-1 (I’m an old school dinosaur too). But I don’t have a big problem if interior finish product information is on the drawings–this actually can be advantageous in that if tile, say, changes from red to blue this change can be made without the necessity for specification coordination.
However, I do insist that if a product changes that I be notified because that change could create a conflict with the silver bullets in the specification which were based on the originally-selected product.
And I do review what is included in the drawing information because the designers often do not include complete information needed to fully describe a specific product (complete model number for instance). I have not had any problems working with interior designers in this way nor any resistance from them to be more explicit in what they include on the drawings.
They are being lazy, that’s all. Many interiors firms don’t do specifications at all. Here in our office, the interiors projects that are done as interiors only projects all go out that way. They have these several drawings that are nothing but ‘notes’ that paraphrase specification requirements, and otherwise all products they put on their ‘finish’ schedule.
When they are working with the architectural side, such as we do a high rise residential project where our interiors is the interior designer, they use a whole different set of drawings where designations are used and all notes and terminology is coordinated and reviewed by us.
Often you get the excuse that they just don’t have the time. Though I have demonstrated several times that if they don’t have the burden of doing the ‘notes’ review and use designators there is an actual savings on time on their side and an overall savings of time for the office. They even see it time and again how smooth and clean it goes when they work with the architecture side. But, bad habits are hard to erase.
I hear the same thing from some engineers who seem to think specifications should protect themselves from mistakes or missing information. The subtext is that they do not want to bother with the specifications.
Supposedly the specification writer has the magic words to keep them out of trouble. In reality magic words will not compensate for lack of thought and lack of coordination.
Sometimes it makes sense to put some information on the drawings but this information still needs to be coordinated with the specification. This will not work unless somebody coordinates the drawings with the specifications.
One place where the classical approach causes difficulties is where there are a lot of variations in the products used. In wood construction it would not be feasible to list individual joist hangers and straps in the specifications and then use some special notation on the drawings. In this situation we call out the product designation right on the drawings. These callouts are often specific to a particular member so there is not a need to coordinate with other drawings.
Simplifying this of course is that if the project manual contains a listing of all the colors of all the items (we do this) then there is no major change or coordination of the spec when a color changes. All the colors for all the materials on a major project with lots of interiors items such as a high rise residential ends up with a listing of colors that is maybe a 4 or 5 page document. Really easy to make a change there and reissue it, all colors also all in one place for the whole project.
I’m in complete agreement with Marc and at my previous place of employment, managed to convince the very intelligent Interior Designers of the correctness and conciseness of this approach. They were also grateful for another pair of eyes to pick up typos and sometimes even (horrors!) errors such as veneer cut or match. Contractors were appreciative because all the information they needed was in one place.
And it’s done that way here, too (except for some few, smaller interior remodeling type of projects)
Interiors folks are similar to other ‘specialty’ consultants (ie acoustical, kitchen equip, etc)
they can be highly skilled in their particular field of endeavor and be pretty blind to the requirements of the comprehensive-ness (is that a word?) required from an over-all project point of view.
It can be an on-going battle to get these groups to defer to the wisdom of the ages on such topics.
I prefer to ascribe a more generous interpretation of this practice. When selecting interiors products, as we know, appearance (texture, color, etc.) are paramount. Thus, they see the entire product’s description as being the attribute they are selecting. Keeping this information in the single location of the schedule is simple and reasonable. Having part in the spec and part in the schedule is a demanding coordination issue. Having it all in the spec works, too, though my work load is higher. I have no fundamental problem with a ‘longer’ description in the schedule, and coordination is relatively straight forward.
I’m with Reverend Chavez. They get the colors, patterns, etc. I get the quality and installation. I just love it when I don’t have to go tracking down colors and can say, “As indicated on Finish Schedule.” Of course I try to stay ahead of them on issues of actual material changes, successfully MOST of the time.
We do a lot of large projects with sometimes 12 carpets, 50+ tiles, and so on. I accept that the color, pattern, custom strike-off are on the Finish Schedules on the Drawings. They change some of those constantly, so it saves me work. But it causes problems too. The interior designers never seem to worry about tile thickness, for example. Or if they do, they get it wrong and if the 4-inch square version is 1/4 inch thick, they assume the 24-inch square one is too.
I used to be RREEAAALLYY anal about listing all a products attributes in the spec but eventually came to realize it was a make work campaign. Interiors select products by brand name/manufacturer/distrbutor/face size/thickness/color/pattern/etc that have inherent attributes. My methodology became redundant. I finally realized that if the designer selected Shaw carpet tile BLAH-BLAH in color blah, all the necessary attributes were inherent in the product brand name. They even include if the tiles are installed 1/4-turn.
Room finish and color schedules have migrated from drawings to specs back to drawings as CAD and spreadsheets became more prevalent. I progressed to a special section that gave colors and some attributes for all products touched by the interiors folks including exterior/interior metal products. Contractors liked this methodology for its ease of use.
Today, we have the finish materials legends back on the drawings, developed, managed, and updated by the interior designers. I simply coordinate the “type designators.”
I now offer up ways and means to aid the interior designers to do more with less or offer methodologies for those ocassions when color has not been selected. But that is another topic for a future thread.
Somedays I long to go back in time when I did the drawings and spec (coordinated) but I wake up in a cold sweat and quickly come to my senses.
Only 4 more hours till I can get back in my Road King and ride, Sally ride. It badly needs a wash after riding 8-10 hours in the rain on Wednesday between Orofino ID and Seattle.
I washed my boots inside and out, 3 pairs of socks, two pairs of gloves, two pairs of WileyX glasses, my windshield, my neck, the inside of my helmet, but the bike is still dirty as hell.
Keep the rubber side down and the chrome side up if you have chrome. In the last 7 miles, I had a close encounter on a hill with a pickup going to fast in the rain, changing lanes into the gap infront of me, fishtail, fishtail some more, hit the guardrail on the ditch side, roll over once and come to rest in my lane on the driver’s side of the truck. Raining biblical proportions. I pulled up behind and parked the bike. The driver popped out of the passenger door unscathed.
Gentlemen: I am an old time Building Official (CBO & CSI) who now spends my time either reviewing plans for cities, counties etc., or acting as a consultant on building & fire codes to the design profession. I still believe that all items should be in the specifications, and not on the plans. I would agree that having the type of hanger required in wood construction is likely more appropriate in the specific detail than trying to coordinate that in the specifications. My believe is that when I receive a set of plans and specifications, I should be able to go out, purchase the material required and construct that structure without having to ask a lot of questions of the owner and or architect. (A interesting site, I will be back often.)
I have consulted with many architectural firms in the past that had interior designers. Quite often the interior designers could not make up their minds during the design phase. So I could not spec more than the basic Part-1 & Part-3 data. The ID would quite often throw an allowance onto the drawings at the eleventh hour…for say flooring, wall covering, etc. They were fine with this, so I had to be fine with this.
In defense of some Interior Designers, they often await a decision by an Owner (or an Owner’s designer) on colors and palettes. Many times those decisions are not forthcoming until after the documents are on the streets for bids. The Interior Designer may have no other recourse than an allowance.