Electronic shop drawing/product data submittals

Archive of Older Topics Archive - Specifications Discussions #3
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We are running out of storage in our warehouse. We keep hard copies of proposal documents, addenda, modifications (CPR’s, CO’s, etc), record documents, and submittals. Any hard copies of contracts, correspondence, Pay. Apps, RFIs, transmittals etc. are also archived manually. Any electronic correspondence; emails, meeting minutes, letters, etc. as well as drawings and specs get saved on our server, and then backed up on tape and CD. The CDs are stored both in someones closet at home and in the warehouse just as an added precaution.

In order to make room in our warehouse, we have taken on the arduous task of scanning everything we have previously archived. We have summer interns working on this. It is very expensive and time consuming.

I mentioned in a management meeting that there are other firms out there that are reviewing submittals electronically. Depending on the client, we request record drawings in AutoCad or TIFF format anyway. Scanning any 8-1/2 x 11 paper documents into PDF format doesnt seem difficult either. Even the Product data, certifications, warrantees, etc., shouldnt be a big deal. I havent looked into the Acrobat 7.0 or the Bluebeam, and I like the idea, but its more software and more training. We have six offices all over Texas. Even printing the document out, marking it up, scanning it back into PDF, and then tossing the original may be more feasible.

Ultimately, the problem is going to be the large format shop drawings; mechanical, electrical plumbing, steel, casework, etc. One thought is to require the contractor to submit an electronic file plus one hard copy. We would keep the electronic file for record, mark up the hard copy and return it to the contractor. Then, we would require that the contractor scan all reviewed submittals and submit them on CD at project closeout. Make it his responsibility. Since they are not contract documents, they are not our responsibility to keep. We keep them for the Owner as a service only anyway. Just a thought.

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Brett, not sure if you have an actual question to respond to, but scanning full size large format drawings is not any more or less challenging than scanning 8x11 stuff. it just takes a large format scanner, which compared to the cost of the archiving effort, is minor.

The challenge with all these materials is in proper naming of the files, so that they can be indexed, searched, and retrieved. A scanned image is a simple raster bitmap that cannot be readily searched for content, without visually seeing the material, much like microfiche (sp?) in the previous generations.

3

Nope, no question. Just babbling. As per.

4

“Babbling Brett” Wilbur, I like it. I see a career in 1930’s baseball, or country music.

Of course, all these storage needs will go away when BIM really takes hold, much like computers made the paperless office possible in our lifetimes.

Right???

5

Anybody have any experience with submittal generator software like Big Machines (www.bigmachines.com), or BuildSite (www.buildsite.com)?

6

As a consultant I find that the move to electronic RFI’s and submittals does not live up to the press. Some of the problems include:

The process is different for each project.

There is very little automation of the process so I spend more time on creating PDF’s and saving electronic documents in the correct sub-directory etc.

E-mail comes directly to me so I spend more time managing than I would dealing with a fax.

I often have to printout a copy of the RFI in order to answer it. This makes more work. The reality is that people will see things in a paper copy that they will not see on a computer screen.

The printing costs of these copies is shifted to the consultants.

The reality is that I can process and respond to RFI’s quicker using the fax machine.

7

Submittals from subcontractors in 3D !! I freely admit to being from the T-Square and 2H pencil generation but Ive kept up pretty well with new technology. However, Ive gotten a request to write something into the front end sections that will require all subcontractors to provide their shop drawings in 3D software and to participate in electronic project coordination. Im thinking, What a great idea and then Im thinking but that cant apply to All subcontractors; guys like the cabinet maker and the toilet accessories provider surely dont have that capability. Then Im thinking I have no idea how to approach this.

I really would appreciate your input if youve done this before. How did you identify which subs must comply and which didnt need to? Did you require the use of specific software to ensure compatibility? Did this process affect submittal and review timing? Etc.

If you have sample language youd be willing to share Ill buy you a cocktail in Indianapolis next June.
dfrank@fkp.com

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Don’t do it!

As you noted it is not a universally available process and may well complicate your submittals and project, unnecessarily.

We simply can’t get “cute” with small portions of our projects just for the sake of being “technically-correct”!!!-- but messing up who can bid and giving our clients the best shot at competitive pricing.

Donate my drink money to your favorite charity-- I don’t drink!

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I’ll take his!!

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Technology exists only to improve the production and quality of work.

You can write the requirement but do not expect every sub and sub-sub to embrace technology with relish and gusto. It is a great idea but not practical across the board.

I do not have sample language because it is a fruitless effort, elevating the tools above the message. What? I can’t bid because I do not have 3D capability? For public work I am calling my lawyer. Something about unusual burden.

If the drink offer is still open and I am free to travel, I want a tall fruity drink with an umbrella, but I will settle for a diet pepsi with lemon.

It is Friday and I am rambling now.

11

Bear in mind that Division 01 requirements are Contractor requirements; the Contractor may have to evolve a means of supporting the development of subcontractor submittals that are compatible with BIM. Otherwise, the concept of providing the Owner with a completed BIM that incorporates shop drawings, ccordination drawings, and material and system maintenance requirements, all in a searchable database, is a pipe dream. Waiting until the most unsophisticated subcontractor is 3-D capable isn’t a solution. Pushing the Contractor to provide a clearinghouse preparer of subcontractors’ materials may be a solution.

12

As a result of this discussion, my Division 01 will now require the GC to provide 3D glasses with every submittal, especially with product data for waterproofing, sealants, toilet accessories, fire extinguishers/cabinets, and Knox Boxes.

Wayne’s clearinghouse of subcontractors’ materials? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I am in. Where do I sign up.

LOL

13

Sometimes this forum generates more laughs than Comedy Central.

It seems that every time I post a question I immediately realize that there was a little more information I should have included originally. The specific project Im dealing with is Private (not public bid) with a Contractor who is really functioning CMa and its that Contractor who is pushing the 3D deal. In fact, they are currently interviewing potential subcontractors to determine their ability to produce the 3D submittals.

As for my favorite charity Ralph, its Me. Brett, Ill buy you a drink at our next CSI Chapter meeting, but you have to contribute something of value or something funny here first . Wayne, what can I say? A fruity drink with umbrella and 3D glasses, Where do I sign up?

Since its currently a little before 10:00 AM my time here in Texas, Im wondering if responses to my question will be any different once the left coast wakes up (subtle attempt at humor of my own)

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I was at my desk at 6:30 p.m. Pacific time. I was really awake.

15

A termite walks into a bar and asks "where’s the bar tender?

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Doug:
we do submittals in 3D (and our format, no less) for the major subs that require that type of coordination: curtainwall, structural steel, wallboard framing, typically. the M&E guys usually do this as well.
You have to define which sections this is required for, and I typically put that definition in the section itself. In addition, you have to define that that 3D document (the “model” ) is the definitive document for that portion of the work. there will be discrepancies between the 3D work and the 2D work, and the contractor will want additional money to clean those up.
You have to define who “owns” the model – (usually the Architect) but also who is in charge of translating the various formats into the one you use – you probably use Revit, but the structual guys will be using Tekla (for example). someone will have to be responsible for those translations and the discrepancies of information between translations.

I cover this all in a Division 1 section called “Data Transmission and Translations” because its more involved than just “submittals”.

in addition, you need to require that the contractor is responsible for verifying that everyone is working off the same model, and that its the most current model.

this BIM stuff has costs associated with it, and you want to make sure that the architect isn’t bearing all of them.

17

I’ve been requiring electronic submittals for around 8 years or so since a national-scope client decided to require electronic O&M’s at a project’s completion (in .pdf format by the way). Requiring the GC to prepare the submittals in electronic data for our review was the first prerequisite to make that happen.

My current “short-form” language:

“ELECTRONIC SUBMITTALS: In order to conserve paper, limit delivery/courier expenses, and to expedite the review process, provide only electronic-media Product-Data and Shop-Drawing submittals (in .PDF format unless otherwise approved by the Architect). Maintain one (1) set of printed Product-Data and Shop-Drawing submittals at the Project Site, complete with applicable review and/or approval comments, if they exist.”

Contractors initially had issues with this (some didn’t even have a fax machine in their pickup), but the Client’s directive sure got their attention! Eventually, they liked it, since it saved them previously un-reimbursed expenses with Fed-Ex to expedite our reviews. And since the O & M’s had to be electronic, they were half-way done. We used to require both paper and electronic with shop-drawings, but no more.