I notice that Industry Members are conspicuously absent in this conversation. I would like to hear their opinion on this subject.
I imagine that this topic is a double-edged sword for them. On one hand they like wining and dining the design professionals. On the other hand, they are probably upset if their competitor is constantly wining and dining their favorite specifiers.
As a Industry member I have already replied to this earlier, but I would like to tell a story since it was brought up that the best gift that a person received was from a design consultant. There is another organization called CEPFI, that I had the honor being at one of there awards banquet where they sent a piece of paper around for bids on a 40 year bottle of wine to be drank by the winning bid table. The paper started to my left and after all 9 others sitting at the table had put down their bids I got to look at the sheet, I was shocked with such figures, which went to a scholarship fund. It had totaled $8,000.00 when I got it paper. There where about 300 persons in the room. There was several CEO of Architectural Firms sitting at the table along with a couple of Contractor’s one being Henry C. Beck. Anyway, our table’s bid was 10th out of the 30 tables with $8,020.00. What is the difference in firms giving this kind of money out even though it was for scholarships? You had to pay your bid even if you lost. I remember they raised $96,000.00 that night with the lowest bid being $500.00 a table. To me there is no difference in budgeting for expense gift’s to architects, engineers, consultant groups, contractors, chairity organizations, and scholarship money by firms. It is just the manufacturing people usually do it to their friends to show off there products. I’m sure the demo paint looked good on the spec writer’s house and he or she is still specifing his or her product. But if it only lasted 6 months, do you think the paint is still in his or her specs? Products have to preform, and pins, pencils, notebooks, calendars, tote bags,and other “give-a-ways” are just part of doing business. As I found out giving money for scholarship funds.
There are few industry members that participate in this forum. A few have, in my opinion, spammed their products and I am not permitting more industry members - unless I know them and have their clear understanding on posting requirements.
They can post subject to moderation approval and so perhaps you should ask a few to respond.
As an employee of a roofing manufacturer, and as a past employee of manufacturers of waterproofing and all building envelope related products I laugh at the notion that Architects and Specifiers can be bought. The fact that I am married to a forensic architect who specializes in exterior building repair must make me wonder–“am I a bad cook or what?” since I have yet to curry favor within their firm.
It has been my experience that there are some product reps who cross the line–offering vacations and hunting trips to their biggest specifiers and architects in lieu of “consideration” on projects. But equally, those specifiers and architects actively engage in back scratching activity and seem to not care what industry peers think of them. The vast majority of my experience has been dotted with great relationships with both product reps and architects who exist in harmony. The gift giving resembles free lunches (which all firms mug us for), cocktails at meetings (which I happily accept), golf outings and educational trips like what Lynn referenced. We offer the opportunity to come into our plants and see product manufactured, tested, and classroom learning in lieu of some entertainment (Indians, Browns or Rock and Roll Hall of Fame) but the rest is on your dime. Additionally, the session is AIA approved for 18 hs&w units so it is not “blanket” marketing on our part.
Bottom line–if it doesn’t feel comfortable then don’t do it. But the minute that product reps and manufacturers cease to engage in “passive marketing” and friendship building, the end of open communication and trust is near. Because I have found it is often not the product but the rep that is selected in the specification process because they are honest, trusting and forthright about their industry.
I agree with this statement. BUT, what if it really feels good?
This thread has me thinking back to the early 1970’s when I attended the old JMs BURSI, Built-Up Roofing Systems Institute. IIRC, the program was taken over by NRCA and then spun-off into its own educational non-profit status. But at the time I went, and probably still is, the best educational program a new specifier can participate in. It was free by invitation by JM. You provided your own transportation but everything was covered including side attractions like golf, and I even heard that some received tickets to the Broncos football game. Darn, I missed that one.
That was one event I really enjoyed and learned a tremendous amount about roofs. Of course, there were a lot fewer roofing systems to learn about; I was still occasionally specifying coal-tar systems back then. JM presented in such a low key, one almost forgot who the sponsor was. You just didnt even hear the name JM promoted. They were very diligent about presenting all the known pros and cons of built-up roofing systems and their related materials. Warts and all. One came away from those 4-days [5-days?] of sessions feeling that you just earned another degree. I never once thought of it as a gift or promotion up until now, but obviously is was looking back on it. Boy, it sure was a good time.
I went to BURSI at JM in Colorado about 3 years ago. its about 2 days now, and there wasn’t any golf, and you had to fly out on Sunday on your own time. However, in terms of the technical education, it still is pretty good and better than most of the things out there.
I don’t see this as a conflict. I can certainly specify someone’s products but I can’t ensure that they get on the project – that’s up to the contractor on the job. A lot of manufacturers recognize that fact, and many of them don’t even bother with architectural reps anymore because we simply don’t have the authority of the spreadsheet in front of us.
a good specifier isn’t going to specify a product that doesn’t work properly just because someone took him or her to dinner; or even took him fishing. at this stage in my career, I’ve specified billions of dollars worth of products and if I get a payback of $1000 a year in free meals and trips, I would be suprised.
Anne,
I know that promotional stuff does little to influence my decision on what products to specify. You know that. The problem is that the Owner does not know that.
There is a concern in my office that the Owner will perceive that product reps are bribing their way into our jobs. And you know that perception is reality (in their minds).
David,
Is the perception more within the minds of your offices or do you actually have Owners aware of product rep business practices? If it is the office taking a “proactive” approach to a situation my guess is that there has been some suspicious activity that they are trying to curtail. There have also been instances in firms where personalities conflict (I know this is a shock) and where one rep faces “Most Favorite Nation Status” with one contact they are persona non grata to the others.
However, if it is an Owner I think that inviting them to in-house lunch seminars or even to BURSI type academies so that they can see the extent of knowledge that is shared might be of help. We welcome architects, owners, facility managers, contractors and the like because in our industry clear communication of good roofing practice is not an option. I have also been in firms where the Owners were actively engaged in selection process by attending seminars and meetings, but this is extremely rare.
the only clout I know that an architect actually has that I’m aware of is their refusal to approve a substitution request, and even that can be over-ridden by an Owner. if you’re specifying multiple manufacturers I simply don’t see how the Owner can think that product reps are buying their way into the specs. and if the concern is coming more from your office, then they need more work to do…