Here’s a really good, unbiased article about PVC:
“Navigating Fact from Fiction in the White-Hot Debate over PVC and the Environment” in Environmental Design+Construction magazine:
If PVC is so bad, and I am not saying that it is or isn’t, then why is The Vinyl Institute and U.S. Vinyl Manufacturing Association members of US Green Building Council (USGBC)?
Isn’t this like the Black Panthers being members of the Ku Klux Klan (KKK)?
In response to David’s question re vinyl industry associations being members of the USGBC, there was a wrestling match a few years ago when trade associations demanded to be allowed to join as members (even though their member companies could join already), claiming that the USGBC was being ‘exclusive’ by not having trade associations as a membership category. After much debate, the USGBC allowed the trade associations to join, and they participate to varying degrees.
The VI is particularly active and agressive at promoting their agenda whenever and wherever they can - All-Vinyl-All-The-Time. And those who dare state any other opinion shall be hounded by the VI attorneys and attack dogs until they give up!
Not such a good strategy for winning friends and influencing people. Being a member of the USGBC is not really working so well for the VI - we STILL don’t like vinyl and we just walk on by their booth at GreenBuild.
And every now and then we enjoy poking at them with a sharp stick to wind them up!
Anon,
Interesting article, the"Navigating…" article.
Peggy,
Sorry that living through the 60s seems to have warped your sense of grammar. Read the statement again. I did not call you hysterical, I did not call you or any other individual hysterical. What I said was, read it again but here is the relevant extract, “… read more facts, and less hysteria.” That is, you are reading too much hysteria and not reading enough facts.
It makes no judgement of you, only of what you are reading. I make no apology for labeling much of the anti-vinyl information hysteria.
When we all get down to life cycle analysis of building products from manufacturing, shipping to recovery/recycling/destruction/decomposition, things are not always what they appear to be on the surface. And then there are those on various sides of an issue with their own agenda. VI has the agenda of promoting vinyl…I mean, really, what is so surprising about that, its their name. But it does not mean that they spread misinformation by virtue of that association either.
Its sort of like the, at this time still anecdotal, life cycle of a Hummer vs a Prius and that the Hummer, though it guzzles gas, over its life cycle from recycled materials in its fabrication to the recycle of components at the end of its life and the length of life of the 2 products, we would do the earth a lot better driving around in Hummers. Not that I am going to go buy a Hummer or even advocate that people do … there are simply better choices, including some reasons that are, like in building materials as well, simply aesthetic.
William
Now, now William - your crankypants are showing, along with your relentlessly arrogant 'tude.
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Yes, I did enjoy the 60s, and one of the things I learned was acceptance of different points of view. Apparently you skipped that life lesson. Whatever.
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You have no idea what I’ve read or not read about this issue, but you do go ahead and make an assumption that attempts to portray me as less informed than you. Odd.
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Yes, these issues are complicated. Duh!
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VI not only promotes vinyl, as we would expect them to do, they promote it as being a ‘green’ product. And they attack people who say otherwise. Fact.
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I disagree with the VI premise that vinyl is a green product, and I prefer to avoid using it whenever possible and instead I look for sustainable alternatives that perform equally or better. My projects, my choice.
With that, I’m bowing out of this PVC discussion. I know you will want to have the last word, so go ahead. I think Russell’s original question has been answered. The USGBC is not prohibiting the use of PVC.
I would hope that the folks who participate in this forum would be able to have rational discussions about provocative sustainable issues like PVC, without it devolving into a food fight. We all bring a lot to the table, and these discussions should be positive and informative.
Colin - I think that the Anonymous postings in this discussion make a case for banning Anons altogether.
Sorry, Peggy, I disagree about banning anonymous postings. Nothing this poster(s) put up is personal or inflammatory. The issue has strong passions on both sides, and we should expect sharp elbows when discussing it.
There is only one poster being personal and inflammatory, and the name is not Anonymous.
OUCH. Who let Gordie Howe’s elbows in here.
Inspite of the soapboxes, this valuable exchange has provided me many great sources from which to read varying opinions, reports, white papers, etc. I have learned much since July 11th.
I suggest including more hotlinks to further reading of other topics/products in postings, not necessarily “green” issues.
Wayne
I agree with Wayne, through training while in college and, more importantly, actual practice, we are all educated people . The best we can do for ourselves, our profession, and the planet is avail ourselves to as much discussion of any topic that we can and make informed decisions.
Colin has made it easy enough to search for topics in this forum but I also keep a little notebook where I jot down the location of certain threads and, especially, as Wayne mentioned, the addresses of useful links. If a topic in this forum does not have a direct impact on the issues I am dealing with today I can be assured that it will in the not too distant future.
Lively debate is a natural result of intelligent people who are passoniate about their work discussing that work. Let’s remember when we debate to pick apart each others’ arguments and not each other. I hope there is a general understanding of apology for any comment that offends and forgiveness for the offense.
I doubt anything any contributor to this forum ever does will wind up in the script for an episode of “Law and Order” or even “CSI” but let us remember that we are specifiers - the most civil creatures on the planet.(grin)
James,
“… we are specifiers - the most civil creatures on the planet.”
Actually, I thought Civil Engineers held that distinction since they licensed as professinals.
Just for the record…here’s what the Masterspec Evaluation says about PVC backing in carpet in the following excerpts:
“EverWher” by Milliken is an example of amorphous resin backing. It was developed as an environmentally preferable alternative to PVC, and because it contains no plasticizer, “EverWher” backing does not react with existing floor conditions such as old adhesives or underlayments, eliminating the need for rigorous floor preparation when recarpeting.
“EcoWorx” by Shaw is an example of thermoplastic carpet tile backing. It is fiberglass-reinforced polypropylene and was developed as an environmentally preferable alternative to PVC. “EcoWorx” is closed-loop recyclable and compatible with known nylon 6 depolymerization methods. PVC is not compatible with recycling of nylon 6.
…and fiber cement is a “green” material too..it’s amazing to me how hyped everyone is in the design community regarding PVC - do yourself a favor - take a look at the Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) for most products labeled “green” - compare side by side with an MSDS from any PVC based material and you will find you will have more to worry about than your PVC shower curtains!!
I am convinced that many so called “greenies” use non-issues such as PVC to drive a greater wealth redistribution agenda…read The Really Inconvenient Truth by Iain Murray..and find reality!
Time to take a Valium.
Some interesting quotes sent to me by Sarnifil (by way of disclosure), but nevertheless indicates how our media works, and why it’s sometimes so hard to get truly factual information on a controversial topic.
Shower Curtain Scare Story Called Exaggerated, Wild
Activist Report Met with Broad Skepticism by News Media, Experts
June 26, 2008
*Volatile Vinyl, a report released in June 2008 by the Center for Health, Environment and Justice, alleged chemicals being released by vinyl shower curtains are dangerous and should be banned. Many news organizations and the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission criticized the report for sloppy research, limited sample size (only one shower curtain was fully tested), and scare-mongering. *
An environmental group claims in a new study of vinyl shower curtains that some of them may release into the air toxic chemicals which could cause asthma, eye irritation or even cancerBut some health experts are paying scant attention to those behind the curtain study. And perhaps with good reasonSkeptics pointed out what they call a glaring error in the study’s methodology. The group tested a total of five shower curtains, of which only one shower curtain – not one brand; one curtain – was subjected to complete testing for chemicals in its composition, as well as those it released into the air – a phenomenon known as off-gassing.
Studies Gone Wild: Death by Shower Curtain? ABC News, June 12, 2008,
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=5057141&page=1
It’s not a big issue, said Warren Foster, a professor in the obstetrics and gynecology department at McMaster University in Hamilton. Foster said the groups releasing the study are heavily biased and looking to confirm a hypothesis. A truly scientific study, he said, would look to test the hypothesis and also include controls and random sampling.
New concerns about plastic shower curtains may be overblown, experts say, The Canadian Press,
http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5irXn1byZsglyrNuyKL9BfRE_KCIw
Also sounding off against the study was the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CSPC), the agency charged with protecting the public from dangers in more than 15,000 types of consumer products under its jurisdictionThe CSPC never just discounts or discredits information, said CSPC spokesperson Julie Vallese. If it is a topic that the agency should have an interest in, we are always willing to take a look at the science. But in this case, she noted, Our toxicological experts took a look at the report and have many, many concerns with the credibility of the science involved[T]he claims that are being made on shower curtains are phantasmagorical, Vallese said, adding that she doesn’t get to use such a word very often in her work as a spokesperson.
Studies Gone Wild: Death by Shower Curtain? ABC News, June 12, 2008,
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=5057141&page=1
According to the report, testing was limited to avoid potential instrument damagein conclusion, more research needs to be done. Skeptics say don’t panic just yet.
Shower Curtain Scare: New Study Only Tested ONE Curtain, The Post Chronicle, June 13, 2008,
http://www.postchronicle.com/news/health/article_212152475.shtml
The study found the one curtain which was tested for off-gassing may have released, over the course of the first few hours after it was opened, chemicals that could be toxic if swallowed or inhaled only in quantities thousands of times greater than those found.
Studies Gone Wild: Death by Shower Curtain? ABC News, June 12, 2008,
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=5057141&page=1
the study found phthalates in the shower curtains but couldnt find phthalates coming off the shower curtains. And if you cant measure migration, how can you claim theres an exposure risk? Its a bit like saying, theres vinyl covering the wires inside a TV set; vinyl contains phthalates; phthalates are dangerous; we couldnt really measure any phthalates coming out of the TV, but there must be (wait for another study), and meanwhile, watch out, TV exposes you to toxic chemicals.
Enviro Psycho! Embarrassing Disclosure in Poisonous Shower Curtain Scare, STATS Blog Posted June 12, 2008 by Trevor Butterworth, STATS: The Statistical Assessment Service at George Mason University,
http://thestatsblog.wordpress.com/2008/06/12/enviro-psycho-embarrassing-disclosure-in-poisonous-shower-curtain-scare/
It’s a great example of how quickly a sound bite can become dangerous and contagious, said ABC News medical contributor Dr. Marie SavardThe idea that people should be tossing out their shower curtains based on a study that more or less focuses on a single shower curtain is absurd. This is scare science at its best, or worst, depending on how you look at it.
Studies Gone Wild: Death by Shower Curtain?
ABC News, June 12, 2008, http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=5057141&page=1
[CHEJs Michael Schade, study author,] conceded that whether the levels of these VOCs emitted by the curtains could be directly linked to health effects was difficult to determine.
Studies Gone Wild: Death by Shower Curtain? ABC News, June 12, 2008,
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=5057141&page=1
Equally sly is the CHEJs conclusion that the chemicals released by shower curtains are a major source of indoor air pollution, and that the American Lung Association (ALA) considers indoor air pollution a major health problem; it does, but theres nothing in its fact sheet to indict shower curtains or vinyl. Instead, the ALA warns about biological pollutants, including molds, bacteria, viruses, pollen, dust mites, and animal dander, radon, tobacco smoke, formaldehyde, asbestos, carbon monoxide, nitrogen dioxide, and potential exposures to chemicals in household cleaning agents, personal care products, pesticides, paints, hobby products, and solvents.
Enviro Psycho! Embarrassing Disclosure in Poisonous Shower Curtain Scare, Stats Blog Posted June 12, 2008 by Trevor Butterworth, STATS: The Statistical Assessment Service at George Mason University,
http://thestatsblog.wordpress.com/2008/06/12/enviro-psycho-embarrassing-disclosure-in-poisonous-shower-curtain-scare/
CHEJs primary interest is in leading a campaign against the household vinyl shower curtain and other safe products made of polyvinyl chloride an important plastic better known as vinylAs groups like CHEJ and Greenpeace continue to lose credibility in the public arena, they ironically continue to cling to the very types of activist campaigns that made them lose their credibility in the first place. Its one reason I decided to leave Greenpeace, after co-founding the organization in the early 1970s and helping lead it through to 1986. Purporting to be driven by empirical data, groups like Greenpeace and CHEJ have become political, motivated by fundraising. In the process, they have lost any claim to scientific accuracy.
(The Absurd Campaign Against the Humble Shower Curtain, Patrick Moore, Jan. 23, 2007 written when CHEJ first began its attack campaign on shower curtains)
Peggy,
Thanks for posting the link to the USGBC PVC Task Group Report & Stakeholders Comments. After glancing at many of the Stakeholders Comments, a clear trend appears to emerge…for the most part industry stakeholders seem to favor PVC and for the most part all other stakeholders are opposed. Draw your own conclusions…but my we see the choice as clear.
Mr. Bunzick,
Thanks very much for this posting.
Very enlightening and I appreciate the time it took you to compile all of this and post it here.
Ah yes, obscure. Reminds of the O.J. Simpson trial, attack the evidence gathering methods. If the (PVC) glove don’t fit, you must acquit.
When the planes hit the twin towers the jet fuel caused combustion. But what was burning…the carpet…now giving off toxic PVC fumes. Those poor people never had a chance.
Yes, the carpet (and furniture, files and computers) burned, and maybe gave off fumes, but PVC is not one of the primary plastics carpet is made from.
And actually, the report stated that it was fuel saturation that caused things to burn and to burn for so long. The quantity of fuel did not act like lighter fluid on a backyard grille. And jet fuel is not like gasoline, its closer to kerosene. Take a 2 inch deep pan of it and light it up, it does not vaporize, it takes a good while to burn. The fuel was a major component of the fire, not just the cause of combustion.